There is a debate going on in the band about theology/atheism/faith. To be honest I love it because it has allowed me to re-examine what I believe myself.Sam chose a song called 'Dear God' by XTC as one of his top 5 songs. This has led to a re-kindling of the fires on this subject. I therefor open up this post for comments on the above as it is better conducted here than on The Erics main site. Come on guys lets get to it? I want to see you all in Church next Sunday!!??
Here is what has been said so far:
Sam :I really do need to take you to task (intellectually) on the song by XTC. Perhaps my blog will be a better place for the discussion. I have been working on an essay/booklet/book? entitled 'What I believe I think I believe', my riposte will be contained therein.ps great list with a couple of suprises!!
9:58 AM
Sam Hirst said...
Bring it on Richardson, you don't scare me......Hope Ruth is ok and not sprogging just yet old bean.......
10:18 AM
Phileric said...
Sam - you don't have to take the Bible literally - or believe in it at all to have faith. Have an open mind matey - accept that there may be things that cannot be explained and may never be able to be explained - neither by scientist nor religion.
5:39 PM
Sam Hirst said...
God, it wasn't a detailed analysis, just a comment on the song! And to me, faith is based on a judgement. And for me to have faith in a god means there has to be something to make an opinion on, like various scientific facts, mathematical equations, or findings, ie something to assess it on and then make a, get this, qualified decision, not just blind faith. Now, I think that is as open minded as you can be, who is to say Darwin or Stephen Hawking is right? But, I have faith that their decisions are based on evidence, and their judgement may be right or wrong. In the case of religious faith it is entirely based on faith, no facts, figures, or findings for me to make a considered view.
5:46 PM
Phileric said...
I don't want to push this on your site but I had to laugh at the way you opened your last comment with 'GOD.'
1:46 AM
Paul Richardson said...
Ey up Sam,Just wanted to say that I can readily agree with the thrust of your last post. That is much more in line with the comments you regularly make on this subject. Of course we all realise that it is impossible to prove a negative ie prove that God doesn't exist. I also have a lot of time for evidence based solutions to the questions which trouble and interest us all. Faith though, will always have a lack of evidence at some level. Otherwise it wouldn't be faith it would be certainty. It requires faith for me to believe that Darwins theories really do fully explain the evolution of the species,or that Einsteins theory of relativity really does completely explain the behaviour of super massive objects in gravitational fields or at close to light speed. Even with my science training there is an element of faith that they got it pretty much right as I dont fully understand a lot of what they said and wrote. Martin Luther King said that faith is simply taking the next step without seeing the rest of the staircase.The trouble with the song is that it is (probably intentionaly to provoke people (ever an artistic ploy!!)) athiest dogma. Some of the lines ie about war and killing being the fault of God are worn out.As a song I respect that it is one of your favourites but as a reason for being an atheist it doesnt fit with the rational line you have usually taken.love Paul xx
10:43 AM
Paul Richardson said...
CAN WE TAKE FURTHER DEBATE TO MY SITE?? THER IS A POST THERE TO START THE DISCUSSION. ANYONE ELSE WHO WANTS TO JOIN IN PLEASE DO BUT GO TO TO PAULS SITE ON THE LINKS FIRSTTA paulxx
10:56 AM
Sam Hirst said...
For f*cks sake, would that have been better as an opener? You knew what I meant, I understand the irony of using god, but its not important is it? It was my mild way of showing my irritation that the issue was jumped on here! Final point, my argument is utterly logical and well reasoned on the issue, and I defy anyone to say otherwise. Well, anyone? Thought not. FFS.
11:16 AM
Paul Richardson said...
Are you a bit tired you grumpy old sod.paulps sorted my brake light -and lets take this to my site - you know you love the argument (when grandads had more sleep)
11:25 AM
11 comments:
Good points
I however am prepared to take steps without evidence as Martin has suggested. As did both Darwin (a Christian) and Einstien (A Jew who was offered the presidency of Isreal) I always get stuck between your arguemnts which are pretty much what i believed up to a couple of years ago, and those of many of the people I admire and try to follow insome way. MLK, Ghandi etc etc But I know we are all seekers after truth and that is why I welcome this oppotunity to discuss it all.
ps you write very well. I am jealous.
OK DUDES
first up since I had problems with confrontations in recent years i tend to stay clear when things become a bit personal, hence my silence.
However here are some observations.
We are all the people we are and shouldn't expect each other to change our personalities now we are getting a (ahem)older. We all know the type of language/ argument style which will wind each other up. We all need to bear this in mind. The reason our band works as it does is that on the whole we recognise the positives in each other far outweigh the negatives. But we do all have negatives, and as we know each other so well perhaps we could be more careful how we approach some things. Particulary, Sam I felt that the way you commented on the song on the bands main site did invite a response and If I am honest I felt it was a bit clumsy in the way it appraoched the issue. However we kept the exchanges in the right spirit and i hoped a keen debate would follow on my site.
Phil, I feel that the language you used in some of the exchanges did seem to be aimed at hitting spots which we all know would wind Sam up. Let me be clear - the debate is intelligent and I am proud to be friends with two guys who can debate at this level. But the way we all 'spin' and construct our comments has to take into account what we all (if we are honest with ourselves) know about each other.
There is more mutual respect in our band that I have come across anywhere before and that goes across the board, and not just musically either. We should not readily endanger that strength.
These issues like Faith and Atheism are intensly personal it is fine to approach them in a light humourous way but we must also be aware that it can become serious very quikly when it is something which can have helped people through difficult times. Depression, relationship problems, illness and bereavement. All of those are things which have touch one or all of us in the recent past. The stuff we are discussing helps us find our way through what can on occasions be a bit of a shitty life. Ipersonally have found strength in Sams comments, which help me to keep a grip of the real world, protect me from an over sentimantal approach to faith and the very fact that he is the good kind person he is after the trails that his life has put him through is an inspiration to me (and Ruth as it goes). Phil your views are of course much closer to mine, I suppose this can lead to a 2 on 1 on Sam when we get going with debates but you are different in some important respects. You have shown me that it is important to treasure the questions as well as the solutions.This helps me to accept that there is some stuff I will never know the answer to, and that that is a good thing. Its tremendous to have people like you two around me. You may not realise it but there are times when between you ,you have kept me sane. literally!
Finally lets keep the debates going but realise that its the totality of what we write together that is importanrt rather than the point scoring or annoyed put downs which will always be a part of lively discussions.
MUCHO RESPECT TO YOU BOTH
You chaps need to get back to the 'debate'. One of you is more bothered about trying to impress viewers with theologious pontification. One has similar traits with added method to antagonise. The third is a self opinionated nutter who's over-passionate beliefs dismiss all other opinions as stupidity, and think that he has the 'god given right' (had to get that one in) to have the final word.
You CAN'T say 'let's drop this' then go on to have a 'final word' which again proffers your argument.
I think you all have valid thoughts on your beliefs. But please accept that if you aren't going to change your opinion you can't get upset when the others don't change theirs.
We all have the right to an opinion and also the right to defend it against someone who will cry & stamp their feet when their opinion is questioned.
Get onto the next subject & stop arguing about who started what & when. It no longer matters. You ain't gonna argree.
Any more of this nonsense and you'll be kept behind for disciplining.
This is an excellent well thought out moral argument for atheism, entitled ' A moral argument for atheism' funnily enough.
It gives a well balanced opinion on the bible / christianity / religion. And makes a comparison between human 'moral' ethics and how the bible really preaches a destruction of these and also how christian ignore these elements.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/raymond_bradley/moral.html
I enjoyed it, it made my faith in my dis-belief stronger...........
dont know what happen there.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/raymond_bradley/moral.html
Useless editor this is. The end of the URL is
raymond_bradley/moral.html
Sorry to hog your blog space Paul.
Hi Guys, you've been busy eh?
Hope Ruth is OK Paul, good luck.
This religion/faith thing is a real duesy(?) isn't it. May I respectfully suggest a jump to the Tony Benn topic for a breather. Phil's comment about the 'brink of WW3' isn't as throw away as it may seem. Most of the major troubles in the world seem to have their roots steeped somewhere in conflicting faiths/religions. I would hope we could all rise above 'falling out' over a discussion. Personal comments/digs were made chaps, rightly or wrongly. Let's shake hands and move on.
One final word..........(ahem).
It looks like each of you is aware of the other's beliefs/disbeliefs. Some are delivered in a passionately stronger manner than the others. This is human nature, we are all different. But, we are also all friends and as such if we feel the other is stepping out of line should be able to say so and how to do it.
BUT beware, this is the written word (as Phil said). The use of expletives gives an impression of anger. I read anger and frustration into both comments. The 'f*cks' etc. came across very strongly.
Don't get me wrong, I swear like a trooper, but be careful chaps this is powerful stuff.
My nominations for the noble peace prize can be made on the back of a postcard to the relavant bodies.
Baz.
Nice one Baz - and thanks for looking at the Tony Benn stuff. On Looker -I am still trying to work out which one I am!! but you are right of course. Who ever said the Erics were abunch of strong ego's.
for all you god botherers out there just one question :- if god created heaven and earth , who created god ! ???
in my opinion god is something in the mind of man that he uses to justify his existance and not some great being that has total control over all creation .
Well said Sam - good to see you back up and debating. as Tony Benn said 'its about policies not personalities' but I paraphrase him when I say that the comments say more about on looker and anonymous than they do about us!
Strange thing - the band must be like a family cos its alright for us to slag each other off, but if some outsider gets involved everyone turns there fire in that direction!
Would like to hear your comments on Tony Benn interview? It was nice for me to read him (he is an athiest) talking about the way radical christianity has helped form his views. Especially his comments about the death of his wife etc. I read in his last book 'Dare to be a Daniel' that he was so in love with his wife that he bought the park bench they sat on when he proposed to her and had it set in his garden. What aromantic fool -how many of todays toss pot politico's would be capable of that? (unless they got it fro a focus group)
Ruth is still waiting, as am I of course. But we should find out at the hospital tomorrow if and when they intend to induce the birth.
dont forget to book a jam studio for the week before the gig ie 11th or 12th oct.
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